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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=[[../|MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates]]
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=Source analysis of web page "The Kinderhook Plates" without commentary
|previous=[[../Sources and links|Sources and links]]
|next=
|notes=
}}
{{MormonThinkNoCommentary|The Kinderhook Plates}}

==Source quotes==
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{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.
|authorsources=''History of the Church'', 5:372-79, Salt Lake City: ''Deseret News''. {{link|url=http://archive.org/stream/historyofchurcho05churrich#page/372/mode/2up/search/kinderhook}} {{link|url= https://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/5/20.html}}
}}

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{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.
I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.

|authorsources=History of the Church by Joseph Smith, Vol. 5, pp. 372-79
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Of this presentation of the matter it is only necessary to say that it is a little singular that Mr. Fugate alone out of the three said to be in collusion in perpetrating the fraud should disclose it, and that he should wait from 1843 to 1879---a period of thirty-six years-before doing so, when he and those said to be associated with him had such an excellent opportunity to expose the vain pretensions of the Prophet-if Fugate's tale be true---during his life time. .... How easy to have covered Joseph Smith and his followers with ridicule by proclaiming the hoax as soon as they accepted the Kinderhook plates as genuine! Why was it not done? The fact that Fugate's story was not told until thirty-six years after the event, and that he alone of all those who were connected with the event gives that version of it, is rather strong evidence that his story is the hoax, not the discovery of the plates, nor the engravings upon them.
|authorsources=History of the Church by Joseph Smith, Vol. 5, pp. 372-79 (footnote)
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=They were sent and the answer was that there were no such Hyeroglyphics known, and if there ever had been, they had long since passed away. Then Smith began his translation.
|authorsources=November 15, 1843, Robert Wiley letter to J. J. Harding
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook... I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.
|authorsources="Comment of the Prophet on the Kinderhook Plates" in ''History of the Church'' 5:372.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Certain bell-shaped plates are said to have been discovered in a mound, in the vicinity of Kinderhook, Pike county, Illinois, by Robert Wiley, in 1843, and taken to Joseph Smith. Now, I wish to ask: 1. Were these plates translated by Joseph Smith? 2. If so, what were their contents? 3. Where are they? 4. Are they considered of any value in confirming the Book of Mormon? 5. Is there anything about them in any of the Church works?
"1 and 2. Near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois-between fifty and sixty miles south and east of Nauvoo-on April 23, 1843, a Mr. Robert Wiley, while excavating a large mound, took from said mound six brass plates of bell shape, fastened by a ring passing through the small end, and fastened with two clasps, and covered with ancient characters. Human bones together with charcoal and ashes were found in the mound, in connection with the plates which evidently had been buried with the person whose bones were discovered. The plates were submitted to the Prophet, and speaking of them in his journal, under date of May 1, 1843, he says: "I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth."
"3. The plates were later placed in a museum in St. Louis, known as McDowell's, which was afterwards destroyed by fire, and the plates were lost.
"4. The event would go very far towards confirming the idea that in very ancient times, there was intercourse between the eastern and western hemispheres; and the statement of the prophet would mean that the remains were Egyptian. The fair implication, also, from the prophet's words is that this descendant of the Pharaohs possessed a kingdom in the new world; and this circumstance may account for the evidence of a dash of Egyptian civilization in our American antiquities.
"5. The whole account of the finding of the plates, together with the testimony of eight witnesses, besides Mr. Wiley, who were acquainted with the finding of the relics, as also the statement from the prophet's history, is found in the Millennial Star, vol. 21: pp. 40-44.

|authorsources=''Improvement Era''. Vol. VII. March 1904. No. 5.)
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Of this presentation of the matter it is only necessary to say that it is a little singular that Mr. Fugate alone out of the three said to be in collusion in perpetrating the fraud should disclose it, and that he should wait from 1843 to 1879-a period of thirty-six years-before doing so, when he and those said to be associated with him had such an excellent opportunity to expose the vain pretensions of the Prophet-if Fugate's tale be true? For while the statement in the text of the Prophet's Journal to the effect that the find was genuine, and that he had translated some of the characters and learned certain historical facts concerning the person with whose remains the plates were found, may not have been known at the time to the alleged conspiritors to deceive him, still the editor of the Times and Seasons-John Taylor, the close personal friend of the Prophet-took the find seriously, and expressed at once explicit confidence in an editorial in the Times and Seasons, of May 1st, 1843, that the Prophet could give a translation of the plates. And this attitude the Church, continued to maintain; for in The Prophet, (a Mormon weekly periodical, published in New York) of the 15th of February, 1845, there was published a fac-simile of the Kinderhook plates, together with the Times and Seasons editorial and all the above matter of the text. How easy to have covered Joseph Smith and his followers with ridicule by proclaiming the hoax as soon as they accepted the Kinderhook plates as genuine! Why was it not done? The fact that Fugate's story was not told until thirty-six years after the event, and that he alone of all those who were connected with the event gives that version of it, is rather strong evidence that his story is the hoax, not the discovery of the plates, nor the engravings upon them.
|authorsources=B.H. Roberts, ''New Witnesses for God'', p. 63.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County by some persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about 6 feet from the surface of the earth which was 9 foot high. The plates were on the breast of the skeleton. This diagram shows the size of the plates being drawn on the edge of one of them. They are covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.
|authorsources=B.H. Roberts, ''Comprehensive History of The Church'', 5:374-276.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=A recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders....
"The plates are now back in their original category of genuine.... Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well.

|authorsources=Welby W. Ricks, 1962
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=The brass plates had characters or hieroglyphics on them which nobody was able to read. The bones found in the mound might have belonged to, "a person, or a family of distinction, in ages long gone by, and that these plates contain the history of the times, or of a people, that existed far - far beyond the memory of the present race." (Times and Seasons, vol. 4, page 187.)
"Why does the circumstance of the plates recently found in a mound in Pike county, III., by Mr. Wiley, together with ethnology and a thousand other things, go to prove the Book of Mormon true? - Answer: Because it is true!" (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, page 406)
"We learn there was a Mormon present when the plates were found, who it is said, leaped for joy at the discovery, and remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon--which it undoubtedly will.

|authorsources=''Times and Seasons'', Vol.4, p.187
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=A person present when the plates were found remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, which it undoubtedly will.
|authorsources=''History of the Church'', Vol. 5, p.378
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Six plates having the appearance of Brass have lately been dug out of a mound by a gentleman in Pike Co. Illinois. They are small and filled with engravings in Egyptian language and contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah. His bones were found in the same vase (made of Cement). Part of the bones were 15 ft. underground. ... A large number of Citizens have seen them and compared the characters with those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this city.
|authorsources=Apostle Parley Pratt, May 7, 1843, reprinted in The ''Ensign'', August 1981, page 73.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=The contents of the plates, together with a Fac-simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times and Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed.
|authorsources=''The Nauvoo Neighbor'', June, 1843.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=By whom these plates were deposited there, must ever remain a secret, unless some one skilled in deciphering hieroglyphics, may be found to unravel the mystery. Some pretend to say, that Smith the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them. If he has, he will confer a great favor on the public by removing the mystery which hangs over them. We learn there was a Mormon present when the plates were found, who it is said, leaped for joy at the discovery, and remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon ... There were but few bones found in the mound; and it is believed, that it was but the burial place of a small number, perhaps of a person, or family of distinction, in ages long gone by ..." The plates above alluded to, were exhibited in this city [Quincy] last week, and are now, we understand, in Nauvoo, subject to the inspection of the Mormon Prophet. The public curiosity is greatly excited, and if Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent, than any man now living.
|authorsources=The Quincy Whig 6, May 3, 1843. Also printed in the Times and Seasons 4, May 1,1843 pp. 186-87, Nauvoo, Illinois.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Charlotte Haven said that when Joshua Moore ".showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them.
|authorsources=''Overland Monthly'', Dec. 1890, page 630
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=If Joseph Smith had not been murdered in June, 1844, it is very possible he might have published a complete "translation" of these bogus plates. Just a month before his death, it was reported that he was "busy in translating them. The new work which Jo. is about to issue as a translation of these plates will be nothing more nor less than a sequel to the Book of Mormon...
|authorsources=Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=But, on the other hand, we have the fact before us, that the skeleton of the Pharaoh, found in Kinderhook, Illinois, referred to previously, was dug out of a large mound. After penetrating about eleven feet the workers came to a bed of limestone that had been subjected to the action of fire. They removed the stones, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found the skeleton. This was evidently a burial chamber, as with the bones, which appeared to have been burned, was found plenty of charcoal and ashes. From this fact it is evident that some of the mounds are of very ancient date, as it is not supposable that this man would be the only one of his race and nation to be buried in this manner. We also suggest that this colony of Egyptians may have originated the style of architecture in this country in which so many find resemblances to the Egyptian, and which is specially characterized by the erection of vast truncated pyramids.
|authorsources=George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl, ''Commentary on the Book of Mormon'', edited and arranged by Philip C. Reynolds, 6:232. (1961.)
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=There are the Kinderhook plates, too, found in America and now in the possession of the Chicago Historical Society. Controversy has surrounded these plates and their engravings, but most experts agree they are of ancient vintage.
|authorsources=Mark E. Peterson, ''Those Gold Plates'', 3.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=[John] Taylor said he had not ascertained Joseph's opinion [about his ability to translate], but the Prophet had his chance when "several gentlemen" showed him the plates. [Willard] Richards said Joseph sent William Smith for a Hebrew Bible and lexicon, as if he was going to translate conventionally. [William] Clayton, in a conflicting account, wrote that "Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and the he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." Joseph seemed to be stepping into the trap, but then he pulled back. Pressure from Taylor and the Quincy Whig did not push him any further. After the first meeting, no further mention was made of translation, and the Kinderhook plates dropped out of sight. Joseph may not have detected the fraud, but he did not swing into a full-fledged translation as he had with the Egyptian scrolls. The trap did not quite spring shut, which foiled the conspirators' original plan. Instead of exposing the plot immediately, as they probably intended to do, they said nothing until 1879 when one of them signed an affidavit describing the fabrication. Church historians continued to insist on the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates until 1980 when an examination conducted by the Chicago Historical Society, possessor of one plate, proved it was a nineteenth-century creation.
|authorsources=Richard Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling,''
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Church historians continued to insist on the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates until 1980 when an examination conducted by the Chicago Historical Society, possessor of one plate, proved it was a nineteenth-century creation.
|authorsources=Richard Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling,'' 490.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Mound Station, Ill., June 30, 1879.
Mr. Cobb: --

I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say in answer that they are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. Whitton is dead. I do not know whether Wiley is or not. None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except, Wiley and I. We read in Pratt's prophecy that "Truth is yet to spring up out of the earth." We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them, Bridge Whitton cut them (the plates) out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics ** by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust. Our plans worked admirably. A certain Sunday was appointed for digging. The night before, Wiley went to the Mound where he had previously dug to the depth of about eight feet, there being a flat rock that sounded hollow beneath, and put them under it. On the following morning quite a number of citizens were there to assist in the search, there being two Mormon elders present (Marsh and Sharp). The rock was soon removed, but some time elapsed before the plates were discovered. I finally picked them up and exclaimed, "A piece of pot metal!" Fayette Grubb snatched them from me and struck them against the rock and they fell to pieces. Dr. Harris examined them and said they hadhieroglyphics on them. He took acid and removed the rust and they were soon out on exhibition. Under this rock [it] was dome-like in appearance, about three feet in diameter, there were a few bones in the last stage of decomposition, also a few pieces of pottery and charcoal. There was NO SKELETON found. Sharp, the Mormon Elder, leaped and shouted for joy and said, Satan had appeared to him and told him not to go (to the diggings), it was a hoax of Fugate and Wiley's, -- but at a later hour the Lord appeared and told him to go, the treasure was there.

The Mormons wanted to take the plates to Joe Smith, but we refused to let them go. Some time afterward a man assuming the name of Savage, of Quincy, borrowed the plates of Wiley to show to his literary friends there, and took them to Joe Smith. The same identical plates were returned to Wiley, who gave them to Professor McDowell, of St. Louis, for his Museum.
W. FUGATE.
STATE OF ILLINOIS,
BROWN COUNTY. ss

W. Fugate, being first duly sworn, deposes and says that the above, letter, containing an account of the plates found near Kinderhook, is true and correct, to the best of his recollection.
W. FUGATE.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 30th day of June, 1879.
Jay Brown, J. P.

|authorsources=Letter from Mr. Wilbur Fugate to Mr. James T. Cobb, in Salt Lake City
}}

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{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate owned by the Chicago Historical Society is not of ancient origin. We concluded that the plate was etched with acid; and as Paul Cheesman and other 'scholars have pointed out, ancient inhabitants would probably have engraved the plates rather than etched them with acid. Secondly, we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid-nineteenth century; whereas the "brass" of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin. Furthermore, one would expect an ancient alloy to contain larger amounts of impurities and inclusions than did the alloy tested.
|authorsources=Stanley B. Kimball, ''Ensign'', August 1981.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=In the course of examining the plate, an interesting anomaly was discovered. One of the characters on the plate (side B, column 3) has an angular dent near one end. [See Figure 2.] That this is a dent can be verified by noticing that a similar dent exists nearby, close to the edge of the plate. A larger magnification of the latter dent reveals a feature toward the right which would have been produced by a nick in the edge of the instrument that produced the dent. [See Figure 3,.] This same nick shows up in the left-hand dent, partially obliterated by the intersection of the dent with one of the vertical strokes of the character. [See Figure 4.] This dent was interpreted in the 1843 published facsimiles of the Kinderhook plate as part of the character. The significance of this is that the facsimile must therefore have been made from this plate, rather than this plate being a copy based on the facsimile. if the present plate were a copy from the facsimile, this stroke would have been etched in with the other strokes, rather than being added as a dent."
The conclusion, therefore, is that the Chicago plate is indeed one of the original Kinderhook plates, which now fairly well evidences them to be faked antiquities
|authorsources=''Ensign'', August 1981.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Long after his death, Clayton was remembered as "the soul of punctuality"; his daughter remembering his "love for order, which he believed was the first law of heaven . he would not carry a watch that was not accurate
|authorsources=George D. Smith, ''An Intimate Chronicle: The Journals of William Clayton,'' xvii.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=He was a friend and companion of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and it is to his pen to a very great extent that we are indebted for the history of the Church. during his acquaintance with him and the time he acted for him as his private secretary, in the days of Nauvoo
|authorsources=Joseph F. Smith, quoted in Smith, ix.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Beginning early in 1842, William Clayton found himself involved in nearly every important activity of Nauvoo, but especially the private concerns of the prophet. For two and a half years, until Joseph's death in 1844, they were in each other's company almost daily.
[James B.] Allen [who wrote a biography of Clayton], explains that Clayton was not only Smith's trusted employee and associate but also his personal friend and confidante. He wrote letters for the prophet, recorded his revelations, ran his errands, and helped prepare the official history of the church

|authorsources=Smith, xxii-xxiii.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County... President Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth
|authorsources=Smith, 100.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike County, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and other, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.
I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth

|authorsources=History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 372
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Over the decades, through the pages of the Times and Seasons, the Nauvoo Neighbor, The Prophet, missionary pamphlets, the Millennial Star, the Desert News, the University Archaeological Newsletter, the Improvement Era, [in] BYU Symposia [and in Visitors' Centers, and] in books and unpublished reports, LDS scholars and laymen (and at least two RLDS writers) have affirmed and striven to prove the story of the Kinderhook plate incident and tried to make them vouch for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and to defend Joseph's alleged translation of them
|authorsources=Stanley B. Kimball, "New Light on the Old Kinderhook Plates Problem," 3.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=I have seen 6 brass plates... covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.
|authorsources=William Clayton's Journal, May 1, 1843, as cited in Trials of Discipleship - The Story of William Clayton, a Mormon, p. 117
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=William Clayton did not acquire his information about Joseph and the Kinderhook plates from the rumor mill. Clayton was Joseph's personal secretary, and a man as much in his confidence as any at the time. He dined with Joseph at the Mansion House, examined the plates while there, and traced one of them on the reverse of the page where he recorded his journal entry for the day, including this regarding the plates, 'Brother Joseph has translated a portion of them, and says they contain...
|authorsources=Don Bradley
}}
===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Church historians continued to insist on the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates until 1980 when an examination conducted by the Chicago Historical Society, possessor of one plate, proved it was a nineteenth-century creation.
|authorsources=Richard Bushman, ''Rough Stone Rolling,'' 490.
}}
===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=Where the ideas written by William Clayton originated is unknown.
|authorsources=''Ensign'', August 1981.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=The translation for which hope had been expressed in the "Times and Seasons" did not appear. In a letter dated April 8, 1878, Wilbur Fugate recalled: "We understood Jo Smith said [the plates] would make a book of 1200 pages, but he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England." Furthermore, a review of other entries in Joseph Smith's history indicate that he was occupied during the following weeks with mayoral duties, Church business, the Nauvoo Legion and four trips to neighboring cities; there is no indication of translating activities. Then on June 23, just one day before the publication of the broadside that repeated the Saints' hopeful expectation of an eventual translation, the Prophet was abducted by Missourians who tried to get him to Missouri for prosecution on charges of "treason."
|authorsources=''Ensign'', August 1981.
}}

===== =====
{{MormonThinkQuote
|quote=The statement taken from William Clayton's journal didn't appear until September 1856 in Salt Lake City's "Deseret News". At that point, time itself had eroded away the opportunity for a hearty joke, if that were the hoaxers' intent; and the absence of an actual translation in spite of the Clayton entry in the "History of Joseph Smith" could only have added to frustrations - assuming that the hoaxers even knew of the "Deseret News" account which appeared thirteen years later and a thousand miles away.
|authorsources=''Ensign'', August 1981.
}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

2013-03-27T03:04:47Z

Wiki Wonka: /* "The Kinderhook Plates" */ mod

{{Articles FAIR copyright}} {{Articles Header 1}} {{Articles Header 2}} {{Articles Header 3}} {{Articles Header 4}} {{Articles Header 5}} {{Articles Header 6}} {{Articles Header 7}} {{Articles Header 8}} {{Articles Header 9}} {{Articles Header 10}}
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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=
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}}
{{CriticalWorkInfobox
|title=''MormonThink.com''
|type=Website
|author=Anonymous
|affiliation="Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the ''Recovery from Mormonism'' message board.
|accuracy=Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
|templecontent='''NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site, including links to secretly taped video recordings of the endowmnent.'''
}}
=A FAIR Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink''=
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. —MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 {{ref|spongebob1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it. —MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. {{ref|jesussmith1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse'. The gig is up. —MormonThink's third and current managing editor, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013. {{ref|mteditor3}}
}}




==Overview==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,
<blockquote>
You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.{{ref|spongebob2}}
</blockquote>
The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede|creating a media spectacle]] regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,
<blockquote>
If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. {{ref|twede1}}
</blockquote>

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede
|subject=Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede
|summary=David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.
}}

NOTE: A church member has created a faith-promoting site with a similar name called "Mormons Think." at http://www.mormonsthink.com/. This site should not be confused with the critical site mormonthink.com.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.
====General topics====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}
====The Book of Mormon====
====="Joseph Running with the Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."
}}

====="Translation of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
}}
====="Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FAIR note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
}}
====="The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
}}

====="Book of Mormon Difficulties"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
}}
====="The Witnesses"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
}}

====Visions====
====="The First Vision"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
}}
====="Moroni's Visitation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}

====Other Translation Related Topics====
====="The Kinderhook Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Kinderhook Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FAIR) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
}}

====="The Greek Psalter Translation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
}}
====="Joseph's Translation of the Bible"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
}}
====Controversial Past Practices====
====="Polygamy"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm}}) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
}}
====="Blacks and the priesthood"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
}}

====Temple Related Topics====
====="The Temple"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary= MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''
}}

====Church integrity====
====="Lying for the Lord"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
}}

====="Tithing"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
}}

====Other Topics====
====="Conflicts with Science"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}

=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|spongebob1}}Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012.
#{{note|jesussmith1}}Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.
#{{note|mteditor3}}Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013.
#{{note|spongebob2}}Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
#{{note|twede1}}David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.

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[[fr:Website reviews/MormonThink]]

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

2013-03-27T03:04:25Z

Wiki Wonka: /* "The Kinderhook Plates" */ link

{{Articles FAIR copyright}} {{Articles Header 1}} {{Articles Header 2}} {{Articles Header 3}} {{Articles Header 4}} {{Articles Header 5}} {{Articles Header 6}} {{Articles Header 7}} {{Articles Header 8}} {{Articles Header 9}} {{Articles Header 10}}
{{summary}}
__NOTOC__
{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=
|previous=
|next=
|notes=
}}
{{CriticalWorkInfobox
|title=''MormonThink.com''
|type=Website
|author=Anonymous
|affiliation="Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the ''Recovery from Mormonism'' message board.
|accuracy=Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
|templecontent='''NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site, including links to secretly taped video recordings of the endowmnent.'''
}}
=A FAIR Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink''=
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. —MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 {{ref|spongebob1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it. —MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. {{ref|jesussmith1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse'. The gig is up. —MormonThink's third and current managing editor, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013. {{ref|mteditor3}}
}}




==Overview==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,
<blockquote>
You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.{{ref|spongebob2}}
</blockquote>
The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede|creating a media spectacle]] regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,
<blockquote>
If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. {{ref|twede1}}
</blockquote>

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede
|subject=Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede
|summary=David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.
}}

NOTE: A church member has created a faith-promoting site with a similar name called "Mormons Think." at http://www.mormonsthink.com/. This site should not be confused with the critical site mormonthink.com.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.
====General topics====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}
====The Book of Mormon====
====="Joseph Running with the Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."
}}

====="Translation of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
}}
====="Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FAIR note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
}}
====="The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
}}

====="Book of Mormon Difficulties"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
}}
====="The Witnesses"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
}}

====Visions====
====="The First Vision"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
}}
====="Moroni's Visitation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}

====Other Translation Related Topics====
====="The Kinderhook Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Kinderhook Plates
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FAIR) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
}}

====="The Greek Psalter Translation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
}}
====="Joseph's Translation of the Bible"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
}}
====Controversial Past Practices====
====="Polygamy"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm}}) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
}}
====="Blacks and the priesthood"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
}}

====Temple Related Topics====
====="The Temple"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary= MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''
}}

====Church integrity====
====="Lying for the Lord"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
}}

====="Tithing"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
}}

====Other Topics====
====="Conflicts with Science"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}

=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|spongebob1}}Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012.
#{{note|jesussmith1}}Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.
#{{note|mteditor3}}Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013.
#{{note|spongebob2}}Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
#{{note|twede1}}David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.

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[[fr:Website reviews/MormonThink]]

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

2013-03-27T03:02:12Z

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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=
|previous=
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}}
{{CriticalWorkInfobox
|title=''MormonThink.com''
|type=Website
|author=Anonymous
|affiliation="Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the ''Recovery from Mormonism'' message board.
|accuracy=Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
|templecontent='''NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site, including links to secretly taped video recordings of the endowmnent.'''
}}
=A FAIR Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink''=
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. —MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 {{ref|spongebob1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it. —MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. {{ref|jesussmith1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse'. The gig is up. —MormonThink's third and current managing editor, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013. {{ref|mteditor3}}
}}




==Overview==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,
<blockquote>
You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.{{ref|spongebob2}}
</blockquote>
The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede|creating a media spectacle]] regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,
<blockquote>
If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. {{ref|twede1}}
</blockquote>

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede
|subject=Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede
|summary=David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.
}}

NOTE: A church member has created a faith-promoting site with a similar name called "Mormons Think." at http://www.mormonsthink.com/. This site should not be confused with the critical site mormonthink.com.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.
====General topics====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}
====The Book of Mormon====
====="Joseph Running with the Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."
}}

====="Translation of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
}}
====="Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FAIR note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
}}
====="The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
}}

====="Book of Mormon Difficulties"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
}}
====="The Witnesses"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
}}

====Visions====
====="The First Vision"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
}}
====="Moroni's Visitation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}

====Other Translation Related Topics====
====="The Kinderhook Plates"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FAIR) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
}}

====="The Greek Psalter Translation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
}}
====="Joseph's Translation of the Bible"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
}}
====Controversial Past Practices====
====="Polygamy"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm}}) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
}}
====="Blacks and the priesthood"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
}}

====Temple Related Topics====
====="The Temple"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary= MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''
}}

====Church integrity====
====="Lying for the Lord"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
}}

====="Tithing"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
}}

====Other Topics====
====="Conflicts with Science"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}

=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|spongebob1}}Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012.
#{{note|jesussmith1}}Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.
#{{note|mteditor3}}Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013.
#{{note|spongebob2}}Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
#{{note|twede1}}David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.

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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

2013-03-27T03:01:24Z

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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=
|previous=
|next=
|notes=
}}
{{CriticalWorkInfobox
|title=''MormonThink.com''
|type=Website
|author=Anonymous
|affiliation="Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the ''Recovery from Mormonism'' message board.
|accuracy=Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
|templecontent='''NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site, including links to secretly taped video recordings of the endowmnent.'''
}}
=A FAIR Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink''=
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. —MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 {{ref|spongebob1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it. —MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. {{ref|jesussmith1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse'. The gig is up. —MormonThink's third and current managing editor, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013. {{ref|mteditor3}}
}}




==Overview==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,
<blockquote>
You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.{{ref|spongebob2}}
</blockquote>
The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede|creating a media spectacle]] regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,
<blockquote>
If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. {{ref|twede1}}
</blockquote>

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede
|subject=Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede
|summary=David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.
}}

NOTE: A church member has created a faith-promoting site with a similar name called "Mormons Think." at http://www.mormonsthink.com/. This site should not be confused with the critical site mormonthink.com.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.
====General topics====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}
====The Book of Mormon====
====="Joseph Running with the Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."
}}

====="Translation of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
}}
====="Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FAIR note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
}}
====="The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
}}

====="Book of Mormon Difficulties"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
}}
====="The Witnesses"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
}}

====Visions====
====="The First Vision"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
}}
====="Moroni's Visitation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}

====Other Translation Related Topics====
====="The Kinderhook Plates"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink editors conclude that "If Joseph did misrepresent himself about the Kinderhook Plates, for whatever reason, we wonder what else he may have misrepresented about himself?" We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by historian Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FAIR) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
}}

====="The Greek Psalter Translation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
}}
====="Joseph's Translation of the Bible"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
}}
====Controversial Past Practices====
====="Polygamy"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm}}) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
}}
====="Blacks and the priesthood"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
}}

====Temple Related Topics====
====="The Temple"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary= MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''
}}

====Church integrity====
====="Lying for the Lord"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
}}

====="Tithing"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
}}

====Other Topics====
====="Conflicts with Science"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}

=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|spongebob1}}Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012.
#{{note|jesussmith1}}Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.
#{{note|mteditor3}}Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013.
#{{note|spongebob2}}Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
#{{note|twede1}}David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.

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[[fr:Website reviews/MormonThink]]

Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates

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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink

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__NOTOC__
{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=Anonymous
|noauthor=
|section=
|previous=
|next=
|notes=
}}
{{CriticalWorkInfobox
|title=''MormonThink.com''
|type=Website
|author=Anonymous
|affiliation="Active" members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; Ex-Mormons active on the ''Recovery from Mormonism'' message board.
|accuracy=Conclusions drawn are predominantly negative toward the truth claims of the Church.
|templecontent='''NOTE: Extremely detailed temple content is present on the site, including links to secretly taped video recordings of the endowmnent.'''
}}
=A FAIR Analysis of the critical website ''MormonThink''=
{{Epigraph|I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. —MormonThink's first managing editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012 {{ref|spongebob1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|My dream and hope and aspiration: Members of the 1stP and the Q12 are walked out of the [Church Office Building] or their homes in handcuffs for tax evasion, racketeering, money-laundering,...Add the gender discrimination and fraud suits that many will pile onto the criminal charges, and I think 2013-14 just might be a banner moment. Maybe I'm dreaming. But some of us are working on it. —MormonThink's second managing editor, posting as "Jesus Smith" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012. {{ref|jesussmith1}}
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{Epigraph|I prophesy, in the honorable name of Jesus Smith, that 2013 will be the beginning of the 'Mormon Apocalypse'. The gig is up. —MormonThink's third and current managing editor, posting as "anointed one" on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013. {{ref|mteditor3}}
}}




==Overview==
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." The site claims to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they are "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attend Church—they do ''not'' accept the Church's truth claims, and they have no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FAIR as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."

Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apolgetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, an "Ending summary by critics," and an "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" section, which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.

MormonThink has had a series of managing editors, all of whom retained membership in the Church during their tenure while simultaneously mocking the Church's truth claims in online ex-Mormon forums. The transfer of the editorial position appears to be triggered by the resignation from the Church of the previous editor. The founding editor, who remains anonymous, resigned in 2012 in order to avoid discipline after the Church apparently identified him. In his parting letter to his Stake President (posted on the MormonThink website), he states,
<blockquote>
You said that [MormonThink] is 'anti-Mormon, anti-Joseph Smith and anti-LDS Leadership'. However, you never said it wasn’t true.{{ref|spongebob2}}
</blockquote>
The most publicly well known managing editor was David Twede. Shortly after taking over the site, Twede was approached by local Church leaders and scheduled for discipline. After [[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede|creating a media spectacle]] regarding his scheduled discipline, Twede resigned publicly during an appearance at the open mike session at the 2012 Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference in Salt Lake City. After emailing his resignation letter, Twede publicly challenged the Church,
<blockquote>
If you’d like to help further, please, by all means, excommunicate the next editor at MormonThink. Have leaders of the Strengthening Members Committee stalk us. Even better, send in the Danites, please, please. That should propel MormonThink popularity into orbit around Kolob. {{ref|twede1}}
</blockquote>

MormonThink's directors consider Church attempts to impose discipline on their editors as a beneficial way of increasing traffic and visibility of the website, thus making Church membership more aware of its existence.

{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Media efforts by MormonThink editor David Twede
|subject=Media efforts in 2012 by Mormonthink managing editor David Twede
|summary=David Twede went to the media in September 2012 after claiming that the Church was attempting to discipline him for his online writings about Mitt Romney posted both on his blog and on MormonThink. Details regarding this effort may be found in the sub-articles linked here.
}}

NOTE: A church member has created a faith-promoting site with a similar name called "Mormons Think." at http://www.mormonsthink.com/. This site should not be confused with the critical site mormonthink.com.

==The specific content of the MormonThink website is addressed in the articles listed below==
Click on the links for detailed point-by-point discussion of specific content.
====General topics====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Overview
|subject=Overview of the MormonThink website
|summary=The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|subject=Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm}}) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FAIR's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FAIR believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.
}}
====The Book of Mormon====
====="Joseph Running with the Plates"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Joseph Running with the Plates
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph Running with the Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Running with the Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Joseph could not have run with the gold plates because he had a limp from his leg operation as a child, and that his story of running with the plates is a "tall tale."
}}

====="Translation of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Translation of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Translation of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "Most of us could probably accept the translation method more easily if we had always been taught about the 'stone in the hat' method but we have a hard time accepting it now knowing that the leaders know about it but all the Church manuals, paintings, Church magazines, Church website, Church movies, missionary discussions, etc. purposely show a very different method."
}}
====="Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/josephweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "The Nephites and Lamanites were primitive peoples. Joseph Smith would have been considered a scholar compared to any Indians that lived 2,000 years ago. Yet we don't question that the ancient Indians wrote the original Book of Mormon, but we totally reject the idea that a 19th century man couldn't have done the same thing. That makes reason stare." (FAIR note: we find this conclusion somewhat insulting to Native Americans)
}}
====="The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lost116web.htm}}) This MormonThink article draws the following conclusion: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims "'Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?'"
}}

====="Book of Mormon Difficulties"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 1)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 1)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that "While we cannot accept the Book of Mormon story as literally historical; we can, in a sense, accept the book as a somewhat symbolic embodiment of 'the American story' - the creation of a unique but "familiar" vision of manifest destiny, wars waged to protect the "liberties" of patriots, democracies created to secure the sanctity of these liberties, and the overarching struggle of good and evil - all roughly woven together within the framework of an American Christian apocalypse."
}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Book of Mormon Difficulties (Part 2)
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties" (Part 2)
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm}})
}}
====="The Witnesses"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The Witnesses
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Witnesses
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the witnesses may have only seen the plates in a vision, rather than with their own eyes.
}}

====Visions====
====="The First Vision"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision/Source quotes without commentary
|page=The First Vision
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The First Vision
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The First Vision"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the story of the First Vision "is very simplified and perhaps not likely to be what really happened when you consider all the evidence contradicting the official account of the First Vision that we were all taught in Sunday School."
}}
====="Moroni's Visitation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/moroniweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that Moroni's visit was likely a "dream or hallucination."
}}

====Other Translation Related Topics====
====="The Kinderhook Plates"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Kinderhook Plates
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm}}) MormonThink claims that "apologists constructed a new theory" in 2011 regarding the plates. We note that the most recent new data on this subject presented by Don Bradley (who is not an apologist, nor is he a member of FAIR) invalidates the old apologetic arguments. The new data suggests that Joseph attempted to translate a character on the Kinderhook Plates manually by matching it to a similar character in the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (which, by the way, actually has nothing to do with actual Egyptian). The "translation" recorded by William Clayton ''matched'' the explanation given for the character in the GAEL. See: [http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf “President Joseph has Translated a Portion": Solving the Mystery of the Kinderhook Plates] by Don Bradley, 2011 FAIR Conference.
}}

====="The Greek Psalter Translation"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Translation
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page" The Greek Psalter Translation"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/greekweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that because of the "Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible," that the Greek Psalter story "further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer."
}}
====="Joseph's Translation of the Bible"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Joseph's Translation of the Bible
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/jst.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that the "Joseph Smith Translation" of the Bible needs to be added to the "Book of Abraham facsimiles and papyri, the Anthon Manuscript, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s Book of Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar and the Greek Psalter" as demonstrations that Joseph lacked the ability to translate anything.
}}
====Controversial Past Practices====
====="Polygamy"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Polygamy
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Polygamy"
|summary=({{antilink|http://mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm}}) MormonThink concludes in this article that we should believe that Oliver Cowdery's claim that Joseph had an affair should be given credence because Oliver was also a Book of Mormon witness.
}}
====="Blacks and the priesthood"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Blacks and the Priesthood
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that President Kimball did not actually receive a revelation ending the priesthood ban.
}}

====Temple Related Topics====
====="The Temple"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Temple
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Temple"
|summary= MormonThink originally removed this page containing detailed information about the temple, not because it was offensive to Latter-day Saints, but only because it was driving ex-Mormons' believing spouses away from examining their critical website. The content has been removed and added back several times. FAIR responds to a number of issues raised which are not related to the explicit temple content that the site sometimes hosts. MormonThink concludes this page with a section titled "'''The absurdness of it all.'''
}}

====Church integrity====
====="Lying for the Lord"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Lying for the Lord
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm}}) MormonThink concludes that "lying was the method the church used as standard operating procedure to keep from losing its members." MormonThink also notes that "The message from current leaders is clear. Pretend that the LDS leaders are infallible, blindly obey and conform." (FAIR note: this is a standard position taken by many ex-Mormons after their disaffection with the Church).
}}

====="Tithing"=====
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Tithing"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/tithing.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes: "The church doesn't need the money," and that the Church "simply does not appear to really need the money. President Hinckley acknowledged that no tithing dollars were needed to fund a $5 billion City Creek development & mall. If it can make this kind of interest on its existing assets, then it doesn't appear to need any additional funding to operate quite comfortably on its income from the many businesses it owns without any tithing income." The website recommends that members send their contributions elsewhere.
}}

====Other Topics====
====="Conflicts with Science"=====
{{SummaryItemSourceQuoteMormonThink
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science/Source quotes without commentary
|page=Conflicts with Science
}}
{{parabreak}}
{{SummaryItem
|link=Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
|subject=A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
|summary=({{antilink|http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm}}) This MormonThink article concludes that acceptance of scientific facts and a belief in God are incompatible. For example the website offers this conclusion: "What sounds more plausible; that dinosaurs and plants lived on our planet, died millions of years ago and turned into oil and coal and petrified wood, etc. from age and intense volcanic pressure OR that dinosaurs and plants really only existed on another planet and God moved all of the dinosaur bones, coal, oil, petrified wood, footprints and fossilized dinosaur poop here just to trick everybody but the clever Mormon gospel doctrine teachers?"
}}

=={{Endnotes label}}==
#{{note|spongebob1}}Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board ''Recovery from Mormonism'', Feb. 21, 2012.
#{{note|jesussmith1}}Comment by MormonThink's second managing editor, David Twede (posting as "Jesus Smith"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', December 26, 2012.
#{{note|mteditor3}}Comment by MormonThink's third and current managing editor (posting as "anointed one"), on ''Recovery from Mormonism'', January 3, 2013.
#{{note|spongebob2}}Former MormonThink managing editor in a letter to his Stake President prior to his resignation in order to avoid Church discipline. Posted as "MormonThink Founder Resignation" on mormonthink.com
#{{note|twede1}}David Twede, statement during open mike session, Ex-Mormon Foundation Conference, Salt Lake City, October 19, 2012.

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{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
|title=MormonThink
|author=David Twede
|noauthor=
|section=Twede's long history of pretending to be a questioning member online
|previous=
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|notes=
}}
=Twede's history of posing as a questioning member online since 2009=
{{Epigraph|Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page. A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org.....Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area. I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it. Questioning allows me to see this....I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo. Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is. David Twede posting as "Jesus Smith" on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012.
}}
{{parabreak}}
==Timeline==
*'''October 2009: Twede joins Postmormon.org as "Jesus Smith."'''—Twede publicly linked his "Jesus Smith" account on Postmormon.org to his real name on September 22, 2010, when he claimed ownership of David Twede's photographs. {{ref|otphoto}}
*'''August 2010: Twede poses as questioning member "cryophil" in communication with FAIR'''—On August 30, 2010, Twede sent a message to FAIR posing as a questioning Church member. He sent his message to FAIR using the identifier "'''cryophil'''". He wrote, "Hi, life member of LDS church. I am concernced about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi... {{ref|fair.cryophil}}
*'''January 2011: "Jesus Smith" tells "Postmormon.org" that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on the Mormon Apologetic Discussion Board (now MormonDialogue)'''—(Note, the references to the "book of moron" and "profits" are not typographical errors—they are simply common derogatory terms used by ex-Mormons on message boards when they talk of "The Book of Mormon" and "prophets.") "Jesus Smith" said, "Ok, over at MADB the question was asked about what archaeology supporting the book of moron exists....Yes, the Moaps have made serious compromises to get to where they are: forcing the BoM to fit science. They argue that traditional interpretations were just that all along--including Joe Smith's take on the BoM. He and all profits are not enlightened like the Moaps....BTW, I am cryophil. But keep that a secret please. ;-) If any of you can add to the MADB discussion, my alter ego would appreciate the assistance. I've posted several more times today... {{ref|jesussmith.cryophil.mddb}}
*'''February 2011: "Jesus Smith" talks about his interaction with FAIR with his friends on "Postmormon.org" and crossposts to "Recovery from Mormonism"'''—(Note that the term "moap" is a contraction of "Mormon apologist," and the term "Danny Boy" is a diminutive reference to Daniel C. Peterson.) "Jesus Smith" comments on Postmormon.org and RFM, "So I am sitting in my recliner, smoking a stogie, enjoying a snifter of scotch while I converse cozily with one of the elite FAIR moaps. I'll keep his name out of it for now. Here's how it started. Posing as a questioning member (which I am, just not active), I asked a question at FAIR's page. A Moap emailed me--someone who works with Danny Boy. This game is a bit different than the one you can play with the kindergarten missionaries at Mormon.org. Many of you know I have angst over 4 Nephi. The part where this society from heaven on earth has peace for almost 200 years? My question started out: 'I am concerned about claims by anti-mormons saying that there is evidence suggesting that a lot of human sacrifice happened in mesoamerica during the period of great peace and Christ centered society of 4 Nephi...{{ref|cozing.postmormon}} When several posters questioned his methods, "Jesus Smith" goes on to state, "Truth is, I am not officially resigned, and this is an issue for me--one of my biggest. Posing as a fully active Mo is the only real gray area. I've resolved it for myself, but always wondered how Moaps handle it. Questioning allows me to see this....I felt that a little subterfuge would allow the experiment to run its course better than direct discussion as an exmo. Perhaps that is not appropriate, perhaps it is." {{ref|perhaps.it.is}}
*'''October 2011: "cryophil" tells MormonDialogue that this is his "last ditch effort" to believe and that he "may have to accept the Book of Mormon as fictional"'''— "I'm asking as a final, last ditch effort to see if there are answers that make sense. I doubt it now. ...I get the impression that some truths are not very useful, so goes the cherry picking. {{ref|cryophil.mddb.last.ditch}} We are going round and round here. I have my questions these days. I am not sure they can be answered. It may be that I will have to accept the BoM as fictional moral teachings. That's a lot easier than to accept science is just wrong, and FAIR's interpretations are more scholarly." {{ref|cryophil.mddb.bom.fictional}}
*'''April 2012: Twede creates the account "cryophil" on lds.net'''
*'''May 12, 2012: "Jesus Smith" tells Postmormon.org that he is posing as questioning member "cryophil" on lds.net'''—"Jesus Smith" states, "Ok. I admit, I inflated the % up just to not appear anti Mormon. (yes, i'm the shill cryophil. shh.)" {{ref|jesussmith.cryophil.lds.net}}
*'''May 9 and 10th, "Jesus Smith/cryophil" updates the ex-Mormon message board Postmormon.org regarding his efforts on lds.net.'''—"Jesus Smith" says, "Like many of you, I find the concept of religious faith absurd. It is a mind-trick to place it at the top, in first position, so that those who are racing to their belief will jump over it without much thought.....This topic is giving LDS.NET mormons a run for their money. Some of our posts have made their way into the discussion. haha. see [http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46383-why-faith-1st-principle.html why-faith-1st-principle]" {{ref|jesussmith.faith.absurd}} The link is to a post on lds.net made by "cryophil" on May 7, 2012. On May 10, 2012, "cryophil" talks of "the faith" that he has "placed in Mormonism" on lds.net, "My other question then is, what happens when the evidence found by science contradicts the faith I've placed in Mormonism?" {{ref|cryophil.faith}} The next day, "Jesus Smith" reported back to the ex-Mormon board that he was "[c]ontinuing to hammer them with logic." {{ref|hammerlogic}} The "cryophil" account on lds.net was ultimately banned.
*'''August 10, 2012: MormonThink publicly announces that David Twede is its new managing editor'''
*'''August 23 and 24, 2012: Someone at Twede's IP address in Florida creates account "starlight012" and reports a "bad member" running MormonThink'''—"Hi, I am new to the forum. I want help. There is a member who is posting anti-mormon information and claiming to be a member in good standing. I know him, his name and want his leaders to encourage him to stop. What do I do? it's an article at that mormon think website."{{ref|starlight1}}...."I think it's an anti-mormon site. I know the guy that wrote that and he's claiming to be a good member, but I know he's not." {{ref|starlight1b}}...."Now I am getting confused. Some of you have said that they lie a lot at MT, pretending to be active members. That's also what I know of David, the current editor there. However, some of you have said that the material is correct and while presented in a way to convey a message that pushes apart, it is not untrue. Some have said that it is very misleading, but that it has the facts correct. What is going on here? The new editor that I know is there because the previous one left the church. He is still a member, but I wouldn't call him a good member. However, I have read the article and now see that all of the points come directly from scriptures or standard books in the church. I think it is meant to divide people, using the facts. If this gets out to non-members, and if they think a good member is writing this, that is going to look bad. Can't we get it shut down or have the editor reprimanded by church leaders for portraying himself that way?" {{ref|starlight1c}}
*'''September 9, 2012: Twede posts the first entry on his blog'''
*'''September 10, 2012: "starlight012" returns to lds.net to post a link to Twede's blog'''—"starlight012" said, "I can't remember if this is the forum where I posted about the guy posing as an active member to run an anti-mormon site. Well, now he's attending church again. [Direct link deleted - Mods.] And writing about it. I understand we can't stop it, but, he's not being straight about his intent." {{ref|starlight1d}}
*'''September 10-18, 2012: "starlight012" on lds.net sends private messages to FAIR regarding the "bad member"'''—"starlight012" said, "You're welcome. What will you be able to do about this except to report about it at FAIR? Can this man get reported to his bishop? If he's using his active membership to promote anti-mormonism, his bishop might not take kindly to it"....."I know him. That's why I posted the first time a few weeks ago. I know the photo on his profile at the mormonthink site and enough of his history (living in Ann Arbor, etc) that I am sure. His name is David Twede. I don't know what ward he's in, but he mentions Florida. Thanks!" Whoever "starlight012" is, they are posting from Florida, and are portraying themself as NOT being in Florida.
*'''September 20, 2012: David Twede, under his real name, tells Postmormon.org of his attempt to post a message on lds.net was deleted'''—Twede states, "I have simultaneously posted to MormonDiscussions, RfM, StayLDS, Postmormon and LDS.NET forums, for completeness. However, LDSNET took it down immediately." {{ref|twede.postmo.1}} Twede did not provide the reason why his post was deleted from lds.net, and did not mention that the new account that he had created there was immediately banned.
*'''September 21, 2012: Twede tells "The Daily Beast" that someone from FAIR contacted his local ecclesiastical authorities'''—According to Jamie Reno in "The Daily Beast,"Twede asked church leaders how they came up with his name so fast after posting the articles. They wouldn't tell him, but he says he’s since been told by a church insider that a contributor to the pro-Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research, many of whose members are professors at Brigham Young University, alerted church officials in Salt Lake City, who apparently informed his local ecclesiastical leaders." {{ref|reno1}} In an interview with the ''New York Times'', FAIR President Scott Gordon was asked about this. Gordon responded, "I forwarded the links of that public blog to some of my friends. The New York Times reporter who called said my email was forwarded to Twede’s stake president. I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. I did not speak with any of his local leaders, nor did I send an email to them. I told the reporter it was more likely one of his local ward members had read his public blog and told the stake president, but she insisted I was the source as she heard that from David Twede himself."{{ref|gordon1}} Scott Gordon's email contained the following introduction: "David Twede from Orlando Florida has become the new editor of Mormon Think, so he is going back to church just to say he is active." This was followed by a link to a thread on Recovery from Mormonism (Posted by Twede as "mormonthinker," on September 06, 2012 08:42AM), then a link to Twede's first blog entry and a reference to MormonThink's "Who are we?" page. Finally, a text copy of the "David Twede" post from "starlight012."
*'''September 24, 2012: lds.net moderators ban Twede's accounts after identifying him as "starlight012"'''—A moderator at LDS.net posted, "The person who started this IS the person who writes the blog, whose deception here will tell you all you need to know about his sense of ethics." {{ref|eowyn1}} The reason for the ban was that it was discovered that the new account that Twede created under his own name at "lds.net" used the same IP address as the account created by "starlight012" - the person who originally reported that a "bad member" was running MormonThink.
*'''October 3-4, 2012: Twede is asked on the MormonDiscussion message board whether or not he is "starlight012"'''—Twede responded, "No, these are silly accusations. But the information there is interesting. Either a family member outed me or they're making excuses." {{ref|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}} Various posters responded with questions, but Twede never reappeared on the thread. On October 4, 2012, MormonThink's founding editor appeared to explain Twede's absence, "You have no idea of the number of requests he continues to get bombarded with by those with questions, reporters who want to do follow-up stories, endless emails, etc....I doubt he has even looked at this thread since he last responded so you can't blame him or anyone else that has a busy life for not responding to every inquiry on every thread on every board where people ask him questions. {{ref|spongebob.nov1}}
*'''October 20 and 23, 2012: Twede is asked by Postmormon.org moderator who "starlight012"'''—When a moderator at Postmormon.org asked Twede if he had addressed the claim that he might have "set the entire chain of events in motion himself through a sockpuppet at LDS, Inc.,"{{ref|brad1postmo}} Twede first responded by indicating that this was a "smear" tactic by FAIR President Scott Gordon. Twede stated, "I didn't know how to address something I didn't understand (at first). I have since (some of the understanding just came over the weekend) received nearly unequivocable evidence that a family member contacted Scott Gordon. Because they share the same last name and other things in common with me, that is likely the source of his confusion about it being me. The evidence is unfortunately is very personal, could get another family member in very hot water. A few people, some at the conference, have heard it directly. There are a few others I will share it with on a personal level if I can trust they never release it or give away the details that can create more problems for us. If Gordon insists on continuing his smear, but it protects family, I can live with that." {{ref|twedesmear1}} Twede deleted this post several hours after it appeared. Followup questions regarding starlight012 and what exactly Scott Gordon was saying that constituted a "smear" caused Twede to threaten to withdraw MormonThink support for Postmormon.org, and specifically for the moderator who dared to ask him the questions. {{ref|twedewithdrawl1}} After withdrawing the threat, Twede's final response was, "Now...I will state again one last time: These are silly accusations. This is my last post." {{ref|twedewithdrawl2}} (We refer anyone interested in any of the additional comments to the link to Postmormon.org contained in the endnote.) {{ref|bradthorn}} 

=={{Endnotes label}}==
NOTE: FAIR's normal policy is to not link directly to websites which are critical of the Church. In this instance, however, we have suspended that restriction. All of the links below are active, including those that link to ex-Mormon message forums Postmormon.org and MormonDiscussions.com.
#{{note|otphoto}}"Jesus Smith," ""OT Photo Thread," posted on Postmormon.org, September 22, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/24076/#426359}}
#{{note|fair.cryophil}}Message sent to FAIR's "Ask the Apologist" service on August 30, 2012 by "Phil C." from email address "cryophil". Located in FAIR's archives.
#{{note|cozing.postmormon}}"Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26679/#465342}}
#{{note|perhaps.it.is}}"Jesus Smith," "Cozing up with FAIR (stage 1)", posted on Postmormon.org, February 1, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/26679/}}
#{{note|jesussmith.cryophil.mddb}}"Jesus Smith," "One of the top LDS “experts” on Mesoamerica promotes cherry picking", posted on Postmormon.org, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/30596/}}
#{{note|cryophil.mddb.last.ditch}}"cryophil", "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56087-book-of-mormon-archaeology/page__st__20#entry1209059914}}
#{{note|cryophil.mddb.bom.fictional}}"cryophil," "Book Of Mormon Archaeology", posted on MormonDialogue, October 26, 2011. {{link|url=http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56087-book-of-mormon-archaeology/page__st__20#entry1209059752}}
#{{note|jesussmith.cryophil.lds.net}}"Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....", posted on Postmormon.org, May 12, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33406/#539944}}
#{{note|jesussmith.faith.absurd}}"Jesus Smith," "The hypocrisy of the “Faith” argument in Alma 32", posted on Postmormon.org, May 9, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33381/#539716}}
#{{note|cryophil.faith}}"cryophil," "Why is Faith the 1st principle?", posted on lds.net, May 10, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46383-why-faith-1st-principle-2.html#post669872}}
#{{note|hammerlogic}}"Jesus Smith," "Oh boy…Continuing to hammer them with logic ....," posted on Postmormon.org, May 11, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/33406/}}
#{{note|starlight1}}"starlight012," "Report bad member?", posted on lds.net, August 23, 2012. ("starlight012" account linked to David Twede by lds.net moderators and subsequently banned as having originated from the same IP address) {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member.html}}
#{{note|starlight1b}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member.html#post693154}}
#{{note|starlight1c}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, August 24, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member-2.html#post693277}}
#{{note|starlight1d}}Posted by "starlight012" on lds.net, September 10, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/48662-member-returned-church.html#post697230}}
#{{note|twede.postmo.1}}David Twede, "MormonThink events," posted on Postmormon.org, September 20, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/34897/}}
#{{note|reno1}}Jamie Reno, "Mormons Want to Excommunicate Romney Critic," ''The Daily Beast'', Sept. 21, 2012 {{link|url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/21/mormons-want-to-excommunicate-romney-critic.html}}
#{{note|gordon1}}Scott Gordon, "Message from the President," ''The FAIR Journal'', September 2012 {{link|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/fair-journals/FJ201209-html}}
#{{note|eowyn1}}Message posted by moderator "Eowyn" on "lds.net," September 24, 2012) {{link|url=http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/48374-report-bad-member-4.html#post700733}}
#{{note|twede.mdb.oct.3.2012}}David Twede, "Question for David Twede", posted on ''MormonDiscussions'', October 3, 2012. {{link|url=http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=641681#p641681}}
#{{note|spongebob.nov1}}Posted by "LDS Truthseeker" on MormonDiscussions, October 4, 2012. {{link|url=http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=642176#p642176}}
#{{note|brad1postmo}}Posted by Brad (ZeeZrom) Moderator, Postmormon.org, October 20, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/35221/#556798}}
#{{note|twedesmear1}}Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 23, 2012. This post was deleted several hours later and replaced by the word (snip). {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/35221/#556983}}
#{{note|brad2postmo}}Posted by Brad (ZeeZrom) Moderator on Postmormon.org, October 23, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/35221/#556987}}
#{{note|twedewithdrawl1}}Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012.
#{{note|twedewithdrawl2}}Posted by David Twede on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012.
#{{note|bradthorn}}Comments by various posters made on Postmormon.org, October 25, 2012. {{link|url=http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/35221/#557261}}