Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Tithing - Revision history

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	From the Church's founding until 1838, "the words ''tithe'' and ''tithing'' as used in the Church referred to any voluntary offering, regardless of the amount."<ref>[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/tithing?lang=eng "Tithing,"] Church History Topics, Gospel Library, accessed 14 May 2023.</ref> Beginning in 1831, "the Saints had been instructed to consecrate all of their property to the Church. This effort was moderately successful at first, but, ultimately, unsuccessful business and banking ventures undertaken by Church leaders, as well as nationwide economic problems, failed to produce the necessary funding to carry out the various divinely mandated endeavors. In an effort to cover Church expenses, Edward Partridge, in consultation with his first counselor and the manager of the Missouri storehouse, had suggested in late 1837 that each household donate 2 percent of its net worth each year."<ref>David W. Smith, [https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-development-of-the-council-on-the-disposition-of-the-tithes/ "The Development of the Council on the DIsposition of the Tithes,"] ''BYU Studies Quarterly'' 57, no. 2 (2018), 137–138. See also historical introduction to [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-8-july-1838-c-dc-119/1#historical-intro "Revelation, 8 July 1838—C [D&C 119],"] josephsmithpapers.org.</ref>		From the Church's founding until 1838, "the words ''tithe'' and ''tithing'' as used in the Church referred to any voluntary offering, regardless of the amount."<ref>[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/tithing?lang=eng "Tithing,"] Church History Topics, Gospel Library, accessed 14 May 2023.</ref> Beginning in 1831, "the Saints had been instructed to consecrate all of their property to the Church. This effort was moderately successful at first, but, ultimately, unsuccessful business and banking ventures undertaken by Church leaders, as well as nationwide economic problems, failed to produce the necessary funding to carry out the various divinely mandated endeavors. In an effort to cover Church expenses, Edward Partridge, in consultation with his first counselor and the manager of the Missouri storehouse, had suggested in late 1837 that each household donate 2 percent of its net worth each year."<ref>David W. Smith, [https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-development-of-the-council-on-the-disposition-of-the-tithes/ "The Development of the Council on the DIsposition of the Tithes,"] ''BYU Studies Quarterly'' 57, no. 2 (2018), 137–138. See also historical introduction to [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-8-july-1838-c-dc-119/1#historical-intro "Revelation, 8 July 1838—C [D&C 119],"] josephsmithpapers.org.</ref>

	In 1838 "questions arose about the best way to meet the Church’s financial needs and the role donated funds should play." In response to these questions, the Lord instructed that "first, the Saints should make a one-time donation of all their surplus property; 'and after that,' the revelation said, 'those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually.'"<ref>"Tithing," Church History Topics. See also Doctrine and Covenants 119:1–5.</ref> By 1841, the requirement for an initial donation of all surplus property "shifted to donating one-tenth of Saints’ net worth at the start of the Nauvoo Temple’s construction or when they joined the Church," while the requirement of donating "10 percent of their increase or income each subsequent year" continued unchanged.<ref>"Tithing," note 10, Church History Topics.</ref> This practice of tithing continued through the end of the 19th century.<ref>See for example remarks by John Taylor in "Salt Lake Stake Conference," in Journal History of the Church, [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/28f94e0a-624a-4463-8ee4-c4eb0339c50b/0/74 8 January 1881, page 5].</ref> At some point around the turn of the century, the practice of donating 10 percent of net worth upon joining the Church was discontinued. Today, "tithing is [defined as] the donation of one-tenth of one's income to God's Church."<ref>''General Handbook,''[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng#title_number7 "34.3.1 Tithing,"] accessed 14 May 2023.		In 1838 "questions arose about the best way to meet the Church’s financial needs and the role donated funds should play." In response to these questions, the Lord instructed that "first, the Saints should make a one-time donation of all their surplus property; 'and after that,' the revelation said, 'those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually.'"<ref>"Tithing," Church History Topics. See also Doctrine and Covenants 119:1–5.</ref> By 1841, the requirement for an initial donation of all surplus property "shifted to donating one-tenth of Saints’ net worth at the start of the Nauvoo Temple’s construction or when they joined the Church," while the requirement of donating "10 percent of their increase or income each subsequent year" continued unchanged.<ref>"Tithing," note 10, Church History Topics.</ref> This practice of tithing continued through the end of the 19th century.<ref>See for example remarks by John Taylor in "Salt Lake Stake Conference," in Journal History of the Church, [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/28f94e0a-624a-4463-8ee4-c4eb0339c50b/0/74 8 January 1881, page 5].</ref> At some point around the turn of the century, the practice of donating 10 percent of net worth upon joining the Church was discontinued. Today, "tithing is [defined as] the donation of one-tenth of one's income to God's Church."<ref>''General Handbook,''[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng#title_number7 "34.3.1 Tithing,"] accessed 14 May 2023.</ref>

	==Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"==		==Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"==

DavidSmith: corrected response to claim to be historically accurate

2023-05-14T19:32:04Z

corrected response to claim to be historically accurate

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	\|claim=It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now. Regardless of how it may have been defined in the past, the LDS Church expects its current members to pay 10% of their income to the church, in addition to fast offerings and other donations.		\|claim=It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now. Regardless of how it may have been defined in the past, the LDS Church expects its current members to pay 10% of their income to the church, in addition to fast offerings and other donations.
	}}		}}
	~~{{misinformation\|No~~, tithing was ~~not~~ "~~defined differently~~," ~~only~~ the ~~manner in which it was~~ donated ~~was different~~. In the ~~early days~~ of the Church, ~~tithing consisted~~ of 10% of ~~your~~ increase in ~~property~~. ~~For example~~, ~~for farmers~~, ~~this would represent~~ 10% of the ~~food that they produced~~. ~~They would transport their~~ tithing to ~~the Bishop~~'s ~~storehouse~~. ~~As society has evolved~~, ~~so has the way tithing is paid~~.		====Fact Check: True, the definition of tithing has changed over time====
	}}		From the Church's founding until 1838, "the words ''tithe'' and ''tithing'' as used in the Church referred to any voluntary offering, regardless of the amount."<ref>[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/tithing?lang=eng "Tithing,"] Church History Topics, Gospel Library, accessed 14 May 2023.</ref> Beginning in 1831, "the Saints had been instructed to consecrate all of their property to the Church. This effort was moderately successful at first, but, ultimately, unsuccessful business and banking ventures undertaken by Church leaders, as well as nationwide economic problems, failed to produce the necessary funding to carry out the various divinely mandated endeavors. In an effort to cover Church expenses, Edward Partridge, in consultation with his first counselor and the manager of the Missouri storehouse, had suggested in late 1837 that each household donate 2 percent of its net worth each year."<ref>David W. Smith, [https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/the-development-of-the-council-on-the-disposition-of-the-tithes/ "The Development of the Council on the DIsposition of the Tithes,"] ''BYU Studies Quarterly'' 57, no. 2 (2018), 137–138. See also historical introduction to [https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-8-july-1838-c-dc-119/1#historical-intro "Revelation, 8 July 1838—C [D&C 119],"] josephsmithpapers.org.</ref>

			In 1838 "questions arose about the best way to meet the Church’s financial needs and the role donated funds should play." In response to these questions, the Lord instructed that "first, the Saints should make a one-time donation of all their surplus property; 'and after that,' the revelation said, 'those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually.'"<ref>"Tithing," Church History Topics. See also Doctrine and Covenants 119:1–5.</ref> By 1841, the requirement for an initial donation of all surplus property "shifted to donating one-tenth of Saints’ net worth at the start of the Nauvoo Temple’s construction or when they joined the Church," while the requirement of donating "10 percent of their increase or income each subsequent year" continued unchanged.<ref>"Tithing," note 10, Church History Topics.</ref> This practice of tithing continued through the end of the 19th century.<ref>See for example remarks by John Taylor in "Salt Lake Stake Conference," in Journal History of the Church, [https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/28f94e0a-624a-4463-8ee4-c4eb0339c50b/0/74 8 January 1881, page 5].</ref> At some point around the turn of the century, the practice of donating 10 percent of net worth upon joining the Church was discontinued. Today, "tithing is [defined as] the donation of one-tenth of one's income to God's Church."<ref>''General Handbook,''[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/34-finances-and-audits?lang=eng#title_number7 "34.3.1 Tithing,"] accessed 14 May 2023.

	==Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"==		==Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"==

RogerNicholson at 18:34, 4 August 2017

2017-08-04T18:34:01Z

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RogerNicholson at 16:00, 4 August 2017

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now. Regardless of how it may have been defined in the past, the LDS Church expects its current members to pay 10% of their income to the church, in addition to fast offerings and other donations.		\|claim=It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now. Regardless of how it may have been defined in the past, the LDS Church expects its current members to pay 10% of their income to the church, in addition to fast offerings and other donations.
	\|~~misinformation=~~No, tithing was not "defined differently," only the manner in which it was donated was different. In the early days of the Church, tithing consisted of 10% of your increase in property. For example, for farmers, this would represent 10% of the food that they produced. They would transport their tithing to the Bishop's storehouse. As society has evolved, so has the way tithing is paid.		}}
			{{misinformation\|No, tithing was not "defined differently," only the manner in which it was donated was different. In the early days of the Church, tithing consisted of 10% of your increase in property. For example, for farmers, this would represent 10% of the food that they produced. They would transport their tithing to the Bishop's storehouse. As society has evolved, so has the way tithing is paid.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=President Hinckley, in a public interview, admitted that the Church is very wealthy. However, he then went on to say that the assets owned by the Church are not income producing but are instead income draining. This is very deceptive. The church owns many businesses that generate profits. The $6 Billion or so is profit that the church takes in from contributions by its members and its businesses every year. The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes. The church owns virtually all of its properties so it doesn't have to pay rent. The utilities on those buildings and the meager funds allotted to the wards for their discretionary budget funds are just a drop in the bucket compared to its income.		\|claim=President Hinckley, in a public interview, admitted that the Church is very wealthy. However, he then went on to say that the assets owned by the Church are not income producing but are instead income draining. This is very deceptive. The church owns many businesses that generate profits. The $6 Billion or so is profit that the church takes in from contributions by its members and its businesses every year. The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes. The church owns virtually all of its properties so it doesn't have to pay rent. The utilities on those buildings and the meager funds allotted to the wards for their discretionary budget funds are just a drop in the bucket compared to its income.
	\|~~misinformation=~~The critics are mixing up profits from Church-owned tax paying businesses with Church contributions. The Church owns businesses, and these businesses pay taxes just like any other business.		}}
			{{misinformation\|The critics are mixing up profits from Church-owned tax paying businesses with Church contributions. The Church owns businesses, and these businesses pay taxes just like any other business.
	}}		}}

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	\|title=MormonThink		\|title=MormonThink
	\|claim=LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes, yet Utah remains one of the poorest states in the US and ranks among the highest in personal bankruptcies. Utah has led the nation for the last few years in bankruptcy filings. Not only was Utah #1 in 2005, but it also had a record number of (bankruptcy) filings.		\|claim=LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes, yet Utah remains one of the poorest states in the US and ranks among the highest in personal bankruptcies. Utah has led the nation for the last few years in bankruptcy filings. Not only was Utah #1 in 2005, but it also had a record number of (bankruptcy) filings.
	\|~~misinformation=~~The Church does not teach that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes. The Church teaches that members who pay their tithing will be blessed as a result. The form of that blessing can vary, but there is no guarantee that it will be in the form of increased income.		}}
			{{misinformation\|The Church does not teach that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes. The Church teaches that members who pay their tithing will be blessed as a result. The form of that blessing can vary, but there is no guarantee that it will be in the form of increased income.
	}}		}}

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	\|claim=We are tithe payers (the ones that Hinckley referred to as making the contributions). When can we see the financial information?		\|claim=We are tithe payers (the ones that Hinckley referred to as making the contributions). When can we see the financial information?
	The LDS Church does not allow its members to see any financial records. Most churches do publish some financial information and budgets so their members can see what their donations are used for and to assess the needs of the organization that they support with their hard-earned money. Why is the one, true church less open and forth-coming about their finances and how the money is spent than the apostate churches? Intuitively we would think that the 'false' churches would likely be more secretive about how much money they have and how it's spent and that God's one, true church would be very open about how they spend their members' donations.		The LDS Church does not allow its members to see any financial records. Most churches do publish some financial information and budgets so their members can see what their donations are used for and to assess the needs of the organization that they support with their hard-earned money. Why is the one, true church less open and forth-coming about their finances and how the money is spent than the apostate churches? Intuitively we would think that the 'false' churches would likely be more secretive about how much money they have and how it's spent and that God's one, true church would be very open about how they spend their members' donations.
	\|~~disinformation=~~Based on what we've observed at MormonThink, we find it difficult to believe the authors are tithe payers. They may have once been tithe payers when they were believers. To preserve their consistency, MormonThink editors may wish to update their wording to reflect their current status as non-believers or else they may consider changing the rest of the content of the site to reflect the humble, believing attitude most full tithe payers have when it comes to financial disclosure of Church funds, rather than displaying an arrogant attitude about dictating how "God's one, true church" ought to behave.		}}
			{{disinformation\|Based on what we've observed at MormonThink, we find it difficult to believe the authors are tithe payers. They may have once been tithe payers when they were believers. To preserve their consistency, MormonThink editors may wish to update their wording to reflect their current status as non-believers or else they may consider changing the rest of the content of the site to reflect the humble, believing attitude most full tithe payers have when it comes to financial disclosure of Church funds, rather than displaying an arrogant attitude about dictating how "God's one, true church" ought to behave.
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	\|claim=Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing		\|claim=Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing
	Some members wish to remain in the Church but not pay a full tithing but don't want the embarrassment of having the bishop and some others in church know that they no longer pay tithing. Here's one suggestion. The Church has a program set up so members can pay electronically to the church headquarters. This was set up as some wealthy people do not want the bishop to know how much money they make. If pressed by the local bishop, the LDS headquarters will only send an acknowledgement to the local ward that some funds were paid in the year. They do not say how much money you paid to the church. You can donate $5 if you want and declare to the bishop that you were a part-time tithe payer at tithing settlement time and leave it at that. You could say you were a full tithe payer if you want to also, but we don't advocate lying.		Some members wish to remain in the Church but not pay a full tithing but don't want the embarrassment of having the bishop and some others in church know that they no longer pay tithing. Here's one suggestion. The Church has a program set up so members can pay electronically to the church headquarters. This was set up as some wealthy people do not want the bishop to know how much money they make. If pressed by the local bishop, the LDS headquarters will only send an acknowledgement to the local ward that some funds were paid in the year. They do not say how much money you paid to the church. You can donate $5 if you want and declare to the bishop that you were a part-time tithe payer at tithing settlement time and leave it at that. You could say you were a full tithe payer if you want to also, but we don't advocate lying.
	\|~~disinformation=~~The "Donations-in-Kind" department was not set up so that "wealthy people" can avoid telling the bishop "how much money they make." It exists so that people can donate to the church in forms other than cash. For example, one can make donations to the Church in the form of stock.		}}
			{{disinformation\|The "Donations-in-Kind" department was not set up so that "wealthy people" can avoid telling the bishop "how much money they make." It exists so that people can donate to the church in forms other than cash. For example, one can make donations to the Church in the form of stock.

	So, to summarize: MormonThink recommends misleading your Bishop during tithing settlement so that he ''believes'' that you are paying some tithing, but they do ''not'' advocate lying. Right...		So, to summarize: MormonThink recommends misleading your Bishop during tithing settlement so that he ''believes'' that you are paying some tithing, but they do ''not'' advocate lying. Right...

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RogerNicholson at 14:40, 4 August 2017

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 ==Response to claim: "We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church"==
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