Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Introduction - Revision history

GregSmith: /* Response to claim: Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like" */

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Response to claim: Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like"

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	Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.		Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." [[Pomeroy Tucker]], ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.		#Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." Pomeroy Tucker, ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}		{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}

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	Smith published the translation in 1830 as the [[Book of Mormon]].		Smith published the translation in 1830 as the [[Book of Mormon]].
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*None provided		#None provided
	}}		}}
	{{information}}		{{information}}
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	Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.		Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." [[Pomeroy Tucker]], ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.		#Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." [[Pomeroy Tucker]], ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}		{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}
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	After the translation was complete, Smith said he returned the plates to their [[angel Moroni\|angelic guardian]]. Therefore, if the plates existed, they cannot now be examined. Latter Day Saints believe the account of the golden plates as a matter of faith, while critics often assert that either Smith manufactured the plates himself		After the translation was complete, Smith said he returned the plates to their [[angel Moroni\|angelic guardian]]. Therefore, if the plates existed, they cannot now be examined. Latter Day Saints believe the account of the golden plates as a matter of faith, while critics often assert that either Smith manufactured the plates himself
	\|authorsources=<br>		\|authorsources=<br>
	#*Vogel, 98: "His remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth."		#Vogel, 98: "His remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth."
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|The footnote is pure speculation on the part of the author.}}		{{propaganda\|The footnote is pure speculation on the part of the author.}}

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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	According to [[Latter Day Saint movement\|Latter Day Saint]] belief, the '''golden plates''' (also called the '''''gold plates''''' or in some 19th century literature, the '''''golden Bible''''')		According to [[Latter Day Saint movement\|Latter Day Saint]] belief, the '''golden plates''' (also called the '''''gold plates''''' or in some 19th century literature, the '''''golden Bible''''')
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	Use of the terms ''golden bible'' and ''gold Bible'' by both believers and non-believers dates from the late 1820s. See, for instance, {{Harvtxt\|Harris\|1859\|p=167}} (use of the term ''gold Bible'' by [[Martin Harris (Latter Day Saints)\|Martin Harris]] in 1827); {{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1853\|pp=102, 109, 113, 145}} (use of the term ''gold Bible'' in 1827–29 by believing Palmyra neighbors); {{Harvtxt\|Grandin\|1829}} (stating that by 1829 the plates were "generally known and spoken of as the 'Golden Bible'"). Use of these terms has been rare, especially by believers, since the 1830s.		#Use of the terms ''golden bible'' and ''gold Bible'' by both believers and non-believers dates from the late 1820s. See, for instance, {{Harvtxt\|Harris\|1859\|p=167}} (use of the term ''gold Bible'' by [[Martin Harris (Latter Day Saints)\|Martin Harris]] in 1827); {{Harvtxt\|Smith\|1853\|pp=102, 109, 113, 145}} (use of the term ''gold Bible'' in 1827–29 by believing Palmyra neighbors); {{Harvtxt\|Grandin\|1829}} (stating that by 1829 the plates were "generally known and spoken of as the 'Golden Bible'"). Use of these terms has been rare, especially by believers, since the 1830s.
	}}		}}
	{{information}}		{{information}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	are the source from which [[Joseph Smith, Jr.]] translated the [[Book of Mormon]], a [[sacred text]] of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing from 30 to 60 pounds,		are the source from which [[Joseph Smith, Jr.]] translated the [[Book of Mormon]], a [[sacred text]] of the faith. Some witnesses described the plates as weighing from 30 to 60 pounds,
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	{{Harvtxt\|Anthon\|1834\|p=270}}; {{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|p=600n65; 601n96}}. Vogel estimates that solid gold plates of the same dimensions would weigh about 140 pounds.		#{{Harvtxt\|Anthon\|1834\|p=270}}; {{Harvtxt\|Vogel\|2004\|p=600n65; 601n96}}. Vogel estimates that solid gold plates of the same dimensions would weigh about 140 pounds.
	}}		}}
	{{information\|However, the source statement that "solid gold plates" would weigh 140 pounds is meaningless: pure gold would be too fragile to form plates and accept engravings.}}		{{information\|However, the source statement that "solid gold plates" would weigh 140 pounds is meaningless: pure gold would be too fragile to form plates and accept engravings.}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	being golden or brassy in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with one or more rings.		being golden or brassy in color, and being composed of thin metallic pages engraved on both sides and bound with one or more rings.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	}}		#}}
	{{information}}		{{information}}
	{{:Question: What were the characteristics of the rings which held the gold plates together?}}		{{:Question: What were the characteristics of the rings which held the gold plates together?}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	Smith said he found the plates on September 22, 1823 at [[Cumorah\|a hill]] near his home in [[Manchester (town), New York\|Manchester, New York]] after an [[angel Moroni\|angel]] directed him to a buried stone box. The angel at first prevented Smith from taking the plates because he had not followed the angel's instructions. In 1827, on his fourth annual attempt to retrieve the plates, Smith returned home with a heavy object wrapped in a frock, which he then put in a box. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "[[reformed Egyptian]]" language. Smith dictated a translation using a [[seer stone (Latter Day Saints)\|seer stone]] in the bottom of a hat, which he placed over his face to view the words written within the stone.		Smith said he found the plates on September 22, 1823 at [[Cumorah\|a hill]] near his home in [[Manchester (town), New York\|Manchester, New York]] after an [[angel Moroni\|angel]] directed him to a buried stone box. The angel at first prevented Smith from taking the plates because he had not followed the angel's instructions. In 1827, on his fourth annual attempt to retrieve the plates, Smith returned home with a heavy object wrapped in a frock, which he then put in a box. Though he allowed others to heft the box, he said that the angel had forbidden him to show the plates to anyone until they had been translated from their original "[[reformed Egyptian]]" language. Smith dictated a translation using a [[seer stone (Latter Day Saints)\|seer stone]] in the bottom of a hat, which he placed over his face to view the words written within the stone.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	Although Smith's use of a single stone is well documented {{Harv\|Wagoner\|1982\|pp=59–62}}, Smith said that his earliest translation used a set of stone spectacles called the [[Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)\|Urim and Thummim]], which he found with the plates {{Harv\|Smith\|Mulholland\|Thompson\|Phelps\|1838a\|p=5}}. Other than Smith himself, [[Lucy Mack Smith\|his mother]] was the sole known witness of the Urim and Thummim, which she said she had observed them when covered by a thin cloth {{harv\|Smith\|1853\|p=101}}.		#Although Smith's use of a single stone is well documented {{Harv\|Wagoner\|1982\|pp=59–62}}, Smith said that his earliest translation used a set of stone spectacles called the [[Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)\|Urim and Thummim]], which he found with the plates {{Harv\|Smith\|Mulholland\|Thompson\|Phelps\|1838a\|p=5}}. Other than Smith himself, [[Lucy Mack Smith\|his mother]] was the sole known witness of the Urim and Thummim, which she said she had observed them when covered by a thin cloth {{harv\|Smith\|1853\|p=101}}.
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|Joseph himself never spoke of the exact method by which the translation occurred—he only said that he translated by the "gift and power of God." It was David Whitmer (who, as far as we know, never attempted to translate) who spoke in detail near the end of his life of Joseph reading words off the stone. We do not know if this is Whitmer's assumption or whether Joseph told him this.		{{misinformation\|Joseph himself never spoke of the exact method by which the translation occurred—he only said that he translated by the "gift and power of God." It was David Whitmer (who, as far as we know, never attempted to translate) who spoke in detail near the end of his life of Joseph reading words off the stone. We do not know if this is Whitmer's assumption or whether Joseph told him this.
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	Smith published the translation in 1830 as the [[Book of Mormon]].		Smith published the translation in 1830 as the [[Book of Mormon]].
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*None provided		#*None provided
	}}		}}
	{{information}}		{{information}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.		Smith eventually obtained testimonies from eleven men, known as the [[Book of Mormon witnesses]], who said they had seen the plates.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." [[Pomeroy Tucker]], ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.		#*Critics question whether one of these witnesses, Martin Harris, physically saw the plates. Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the [[Book of Mormon]] even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he "seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience." Vogel, ''Early Mormon Documents'', 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." [[Pomeroy Tucker]], ''Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism'' (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in ''EMD'', 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in ''EMD'', 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in ''EMD'', 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in ''EMD'', 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in ''EMD'', 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in ''EMD'', 2: 385.
	}}		}}
	{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}		{{misinformation\|The footnotes only focus on third-hand statements related to Martin Harris, while ignoring the many statements that Harris made in which he stated that he actually saw the plates with his own eyes}}
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	\|claim=		\|claim=
	After the translation was complete, Smith said he returned the plates to their [[angel Moroni\|angelic guardian]]. Therefore, if the plates existed, they cannot now be examined. Latter Day Saints believe the account of the golden plates as a matter of faith, while critics often assert that either Smith manufactured the plates himself		After the translation was complete, Smith said he returned the plates to their [[angel Moroni\|angelic guardian]]. Therefore, if the plates existed, they cannot now be examined. Latter Day Saints believe the account of the golden plates as a matter of faith, while critics often assert that either Smith manufactured the plates himself
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	*Vogel, 98: "His remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth."		#*Vogel, 98: "His remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him. Indeed, his prohibition against visual inspection seems contrived to the skeptic who might explain that the would-be prophet constructed a set of plates to be felt through a cloth."
	}}		}}
	{{propaganda\|The footnote is pure speculation on the part of the author.}}		{{propaganda\|The footnote is pure speculation on the part of the author.}}
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	or that the Book of Mormon witnesses based their testimony on visions rather than physical experience.		or that the Book of Mormon witnesses based their testimony on visions rather than physical experience.
	\|authorsources=		\|authorsources=<br>
	}}		#}}
	{{:Question: What did the other witnesses say regarding "spiritual" versus "natural" viewing of the plates?}}		{{:Question: What did the other witnesses say regarding "spiritual" versus "natural" viewing of the plates?}}
	{{:Question: How did newspaper accounts describe the nature of the witnesses experience?}}		{{:Question: How did newspaper accounts describe the nature of the witnesses experience?}}

RogerNicholson at 05:00, 11 August 2017

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	\|H=An analysis of claims made in the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" - Introduction		\|H=An analysis of claims made in the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" - Introduction
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=Response to claim: "the golden plates (also called the gold plates or in some 19th century literature, the golden Bible)"
			\|L2=Response to claim: "Some witnesses described the plates as weighing from 30 to 60 pounds"
			\|L3=Response to claim: "bound with one or more rings"
			\|L4=Response to claim: "Smith dictated a translation using a seer stone in the bottom of a hat, which he placed over his face to view the words written within the stone"
			\|L5=Response to claim: "Smith published the translation in 1830 as the Book of Mormon"
			\|L6=Response to claim: Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like"
			\|L7=Response to claim: "His remark that a plate was not quite as thick as common tin may have been meant to divert attention from the possibility that they were actually made from some material otherwise readily available to him"
			\|L8=Response to claim: "the Book of Mormon witnesses based their testimony on visions rather than physical experience"
	}}		}}
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
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	{{information}}		{{information}}

	==Response to claim: Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like."==		==Response to claim: Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like"==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"

RogerNicholson: /* Response to claim: */

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RogerNicholson at 04:42, 11 August 2017

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	=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==		=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==
			==Response to claim: ==
	~~==Section review==~~
	~~===== =~~====
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"		\|title=Wikipedia article "Golden plates"

RogerNicholson at 03:01, 11 August 2017

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	=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==		=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==
	~~==Reviews of previous revisions of this section==~~
	~~{{SummaryItem~~
	~~\|link=/December 2009~~
	~~\|subject=December 2009~~
	~~\|summary=A review of this section as it appeared in Wikipedia in December 2009.~~
	}}

	==Section review==		==Section review==

RogerNicholson at 02:43, 11 August 2017

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	<!-- INSERT CHART HERE -->		<!-- INSERT CHART HERE -->
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	{{H2		{{H2
	\|L=Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Introduction		\|L=Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Introduction
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	}}		}}
			</onlyinclude>

	=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==		=={{WikipediaUpdate\|9/21/2011}}==

RogerNicholson at 02:42, 11 August 2017

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	*Although Smith's use of a single stone is well documented {{Harv\|Wagoner\|1982\|pp=59–62}}, Smith said that his earliest translation used a set of stone spectacles called the [[Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)\|Urim and Thummim]], which he found with the plates {{Harv\|Smith\|Mulholland\|Thompson\|Phelps\|1838a\|p=5}}. Other than Smith himself, [[Lucy Mack Smith\|his mother]] was the sole known witness of the Urim and Thummim, which she said she had observed them when covered by a thin cloth {{harv\|Smith\|1853\|p=101}}.		*Although Smith's use of a single stone is well documented {{Harv\|Wagoner\|1982\|pp=59–62}}, Smith said that his earliest translation used a set of stone spectacles called the [[Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)\|Urim and Thummim]], which he found with the plates {{Harv\|Smith\|Mulholland\|Thompson\|Phelps\|1838a\|p=5}}. Other than Smith himself, [[Lucy Mack Smith\|his mother]] was the sole known witness of the Urim and Thummim, which she said she had observed them when covered by a thin cloth {{harv\|Smith\|1853\|p=101}}.
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	*{{WikipediaCITE}}Joseph himself never spoke of the exact method by which the translation occurred—he only said that he translated by the "gift and power of God." It was David Whitmer (who, as far as we know, never attempted to translate) who spoke in detail near the end of his life of Joseph reading words off the stone. We do not know if this is Whitmer's assumption or whether Joseph told him this.		*{{WikipediaCITE}}Joseph himself never spoke of the exact method by which the translation occurred—he only said that he translated by the "gift and power of God." It was David Whitmer (who, as far as we know, never attempted to translate) who spoke in detail near the end of his life of Joseph reading words off the stone. We do not know if this is Whitmer's assumption or whether Joseph told him this.
	*There is evidence that Joseph began the translation—specifically, the production of the 116 pages of manuscript that were lost—using the Nephite Interpreters that were found with the plates. Joseph appears to have switched to using the seer stone after the loss of the manuscript, and performed the bulk of the Book of Mormon translation using this method. Both the Nephite Interpreters and the seer stone were referred to at various times as the "Urim and Thummim."		*There is evidence that Joseph began the translation—specifically, the production of the 116 pages of manuscript that were lost—using the Nephite Interpreters that were found with the plates. Joseph appears to have switched to using the seer stone after the loss of the manuscript, and performed the bulk of the Book of Mormon translation using this method. Both the Nephite Interpreters and the seer stone were referred to at various times as the "Urim and Thummim."
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	*It should be noted that the hill to which Joseph was directed was not named "Cumorah" until much later. The hill was later named "Cumorah" ''because'' of the Book of Mormon.		*It should be noted that the hill to which Joseph was directed was not named "Cumorah" until much later. The hill was later named "Cumorah" ''because'' of the Book of Mormon.
	*{{Detail\|Book_of_Mormon/Hill_Cumorah/Archaeology#Where_is_the_hill_Cumorah.3F\|l1=Term "Cumorah" in early LDS history}}		*{{Detail\|Book_of_Mormon/Hill_Cumorah/Archaeology#Where_is_the_hill_Cumorah.3F\|l1=Term "Cumorah" in early LDS history}}
	}}

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