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Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 4: Difference between revisions
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===Chapter 4: The Lamanites of Polynesia=== | ===Chapter 4: The Lamanites of Polynesia=== | ||
====47==== | ====47==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* The assumption that Polynesians are descendents of Lehi is the "most precarious" belief taken from the Book of Mormon. | * The assumption that Polynesians are descendents of Lehi is the "most precarious" belief taken from the Book of Mormon. | ||
| | |response= | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*No source given. | *No source given. | ||
}} | |||
====47==== | ====47==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* "Mormon folklore" suggests that Hagoth colonized the Pacific. | * "Mormon folklore" suggests that Hagoth colonized the Pacific. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* It is not clear what normative value "folklore" has. | * It is not clear what normative value "folklore" has. | ||
* LDS scripture suggests that Hagoth probably voyaged to the Pacific. If he left any descendants, they probably persist among Pacific Islanders. | * LDS scripture suggests that Hagoth probably voyaged to the Pacific. If he left any descendants, they probably persist among Pacific Islanders. | ||
* [[ | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Amerindians#All_From_Lehi|All from Lehi?]] | ||
* [[Polynesians | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians]] | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*{{s||Alma|63|5}} | *{{s||Alma|63|5}} | ||
}} | |||
====48==== | ====48==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* George Q. Cannon taught the Polynesians that they were descendents of the Israelites. | * George Q. Cannon taught the Polynesians that they were descendents of the Israelites. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[Fallibility of prophets|prophetic infalliblists]], but in this case Cannon may well be right. | * {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[Fallibility of prophets|prophetic infalliblists]], but in this case Cannon may well be right. | ||
* If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them. | * If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them. | ||
* [[ | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Amerindians#All_From_Lehi|All from Lehi?]] | ||
* [[Polynesians | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians]] | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*Scott G. Kenny, "Mormons and the Smallpox Epidemic of 1853," ''The Hawaiian Journal of History'', 31:1-26 (1997). | *Scott G. Kenny, "Mormons and the Smallpox Epidemic of 1853," ''The Hawaiian Journal of History'', 31:1-26 (1997). | ||
}} | |||
====49==== | ====49==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* Brigham Young stated in 1958 that the Polynesians were descendents of Abraham. | * Brigham Young stated in 1958 that the Polynesians were descendents of Abraham. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[Fallibility of prophets|prophetic infalliblists]], but in this case Brigham may well be right. | * {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[Fallibility of prophets|prophetic infalliblists]], but in this case Brigham may well be right. | ||
* If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them. | * If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them. | ||
* [[ | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Amerindians#All_From_Lehi|All from Lehi?]] | ||
* [[Polynesians | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians]] | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*Norman Douglas, "The Sons of Lehi and the Seed of Cain: Racial Myths in Mormon Scripture and Their Relevance to the Pacific Islands," ''Journal of Religious History'', 8:90-104 (1974). | *Norman Douglas, "The Sons of Lehi and the Seed of Cain: Racial Myths in Mormon Scripture and Their Relevance to the Pacific Islands," ''Journal of Religious History'', 8:90-104 (1974). | ||
}} | |||
====49==== | ====49==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* The "curse was redefined" to apply only to people of African descent. | * The "curse was redefined" to apply only to people of African descent. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{HistoricalError}}: there is no evidence that the Book of Mormon curse on Lamanites ever forbade them the priesthood if they repented. The author is confusing two quite separate issues. | * {{HistoricalError}}: there is no evidence that the Book of Mormon curse on Lamanites ever forbade them the priesthood if they repented. The author is confusing two quite separate issues. | ||
* [[ | * [[Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Curse]] | ||
* [[Blacks and the priesthood]] | * [[Blacks and the priesthood]] | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*No source given. | *No source given. | ||
}} | |||
====52==== | ====52==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* Words spoken in General Conference are considered to be "akin" to scripture. | * Words spoken in General Conference are considered to be "akin" to scripture. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{Fundamentalism}}: [[ | * {{Fundamentalism}}: [[Church doctrine/Statements by Church leaders]] | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*No source given. | *No source given. | ||
}} | |||
====53==== | ====53==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* Research has confirmed that there are strong links between Polynesia and the Orient. | * Research has confirmed that there are strong links between Polynesia and the Orient. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* There is nothing about the Book of Mormon that would preclude this. | * There is nothing about the Book of Mormon that would preclude this. | ||
* Throughout this section, the author reads the Book of Mormon in the most naive way possible. But, for at least a hundred years before, leaders and members were [[ | * Throughout this section, the author reads the Book of Mormon in the most naive way possible. But, for at least a hundred years before, leaders and members were [[Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements|saying very similar things]]. He is simply uninformed about LDS thought on the topic. | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
* No source given. | * No source given. | ||
}} | |||
====54==== | ====54==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* Spencer W. Kimball and Heber J. Grant believed that the islanders were descendents of Lehi. | * Spencer W. Kimball and Heber J. Grant believed that the islanders were descendents of Lehi. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[ | * {{Fundamentalism}}: The LDS are not [[Church doctrine/Statements by Church leaders|prophetic infalliblists]], but in this case these two Church presidents may well be right. | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
*Spencer W. Kimball, "First Presidency Message: Our Paths Have Met Again," ''Ensign'', 5:2-7 (1975) | *Spencer W. Kimball, "First Presidency Message: Our Paths Have Met Again," ''Ensign'', 5:2-7 (1975) | ||
}} | |||
====54==== | ====54==== | ||
| | {{IndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |||
* The Church invested "vast sums of money" to build church schools in Polynesia, Mexico and Central and South America, but "denied" these benefits to Micronesia and Melanesia. | * The Church invested "vast sums of money" to build church schools in Polynesia, Mexico and Central and South America, but "denied" these benefits to Micronesia and Melanesia. | ||
| | |response= | ||
* {{Prejudicial}}: the Church gets no credit for what it has done, only what it has not done. | * {{Prejudicial}}: the Church gets no credit for what it has done, only what it has not done. | ||
* Could the presence of schools have something to do with LDS membership levels, missionary efforts, etc.? | * Could the presence of schools have something to do with LDS membership levels, missionary efforts, etc.? | ||
| | |authorsources= | ||
* No source given. | * No source given. | ||
}} | |||
Revision as of 05:34, 18 February 2010
| Chapter 3 | A FAIR Analysis of: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church A work by author: Simon G. Southerton
|
Chapter 6 |
Chapter 4: The Lamanites of Polynesia
47
Claim
- The assumption that Polynesians are descendents of Lehi is the "most precarious" belief taken from the Book of Mormon.
Author's source(s)
- No source given.
Response
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.
Taking the position that Lehi existed, then population genetics predicts that virtually all Amerindians and Polynesians are his literal descendants. They are simply not exclusively his descendants. The author wants to make Lehite links absurd or impossible.
47
Claim
- "Mormon folklore" suggests that Hagoth colonized the Pacific.
Author's source(s)
Response
- It is not clear what normative value "folklore" has.
- LDS scripture suggests that Hagoth probably voyaged to the Pacific. If he left any descendants, they probably persist among Pacific Islanders.
- All from Lehi?
- Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians
48
Claim
- George Q. Cannon taught the Polynesians that they were descendents of the Israelites.
Author's source(s)
- Scott G. Kenny, "Mormons and the Smallpox Epidemic of 1853," The Hawaiian Journal of History, 31:1-26 (1997).
Response
- Author(s) impose(s) own fundamentalism on the Saints: The LDS are not prophetic infalliblists, but in this case Cannon may well be right.
- If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them.
- All from Lehi?
- Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians
49
Claim
- Brigham Young stated in 1958 that the Polynesians were descendents of Abraham.
Author's source(s)
- Norman Douglas, "The Sons of Lehi and the Seed of Cain: Racial Myths in Mormon Scripture and Their Relevance to the Pacific Islands," Journal of Religious History, 8:90-104 (1974).
Response
- Author(s) impose(s) own fundamentalism on the Saints: The LDS are not prophetic infalliblists, but in this case Brigham may well be right.
- If Lehi had descendants, then population genetics tells us that the Polynesians are probably among them.
- All from Lehi?
- Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Relationship to Polynesians
49
Claim
- The "curse was redefined" to apply only to people of African descent.
Author's source(s)
- No source given.
Response
- History unclear or in error: there is no evidence that the Book of Mormon curse on Lamanites ever forbade them the priesthood if they repented. The author is confusing two quite separate issues.
- Book of Mormon/Lamanites/Curse
- Blacks and the priesthood
52
Claim
- Words spoken in General Conference are considered to be "akin" to scripture.
Author's source(s)
- No source given.
Response
- Author(s) impose(s) own fundamentalism on the Saints: Church doctrine/Statements by Church leaders
53
Claim
- Research has confirmed that there are strong links between Polynesia and the Orient.
Author's source(s)
- No source given.
Response
- There is nothing about the Book of Mormon that would preclude this.
- Throughout this section, the author reads the Book of Mormon in the most naive way possible. But, for at least a hundred years before, leaders and members were saying very similar things. He is simply uninformed about LDS thought on the topic.
54
Claim
- Spencer W. Kimball and Heber J. Grant believed that the islanders were descendents of Lehi.
Author's source(s)
- Spencer W. Kimball, "First Presidency Message: Our Paths Have Met Again," Ensign, 5:2-7 (1975)
Response
- Author(s) impose(s) own fundamentalism on the Saints: The LDS are not prophetic infalliblists, but in this case these two Church presidents may well be right.
Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule—The author is presenting the argument in such a way that it makes his or her subject look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or exaggerating it.
Taking the position that Lehi existed, then population genetics predicts that virtually all Amerindians and Polynesians are his literal descendants. They are simply not exclusively his descendants. The author wants to make Lehite links absurd or impossible.
54
Claim
- The Church invested "vast sums of money" to build church schools in Polynesia, Mexico and Central and South America, but "denied" these benefits to Micronesia and Melanesia.
Author's source(s)
- No source given.
Response
- Prejudicial or loaded language: the Church gets no credit for what it has done, only what it has not done.
- Could the presence of schools have something to do with LDS membership levels, missionary efforts, etc.?